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V E R B A TI Al R E 1'0 RT
OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF A
DEPUTATIOA
THE RIGHT HON. AV. E. GLADSTONE, ALP.,
(First Lord of the Treasury,)
THE RIGHT HON. EARL DE GREY AND RIPON,
(Lord President of the Council,) (hid
THE RIGHT HON. AV. E. FORSTER, ALP.,
(Vice-President of the Council,)
ON WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 1870.
BIRMINGHAM.
PRINTED FOR THE NATIONAL EDUCATION LEAGUE.
Offices:—No. 47, Ann Street.
�4
resolutions to Mr. Gladstone, with a view of impressing upon the
Government the objections entertained by the League to the Bill.
In accordance with this resolution, a request was addressed to
Mr. Gladstone, asking him to receive a Deputation. The right
bon. gentleman consented to do so, and appointed Tuesday, the
Dtli of March, to receive the Deputation, at his official residence in
Downing Street.
Arrangements were consequently made for the representation of
the 'Branches of the League on the Deputation, and on the day
above named the following Members of Parliament, the Executive
Committee, the Officers of the League, and the undermentioned
Delegates from the Branches, met at the Westminster Palace
Hotel, and proceeded thence to the Prime Minister’s official residence
in Downing Street, where they were received by Mr. Gladstone,
who was accompained by Lord de Grey and Mr. Forster:—
Anstnrther, Sir IL, M.P.
Armitstead, G., M.P.
Carter, R. N., M.P.
Cowen, J., M.P.
Beaumont, II. F., M.P.
Brogden, A., M.P.
Bright, Jacob, M.P.
Dalrymple, Donald, M.P.
Dilke, Sir C. 3V., Bart., M.P.
Dixon, George, M.P.
Eykyn, Roger, M.P.
Fawcett, Henry, M.P.
Forster, C'has., M.P.
Harcourt, Vernon, 31. .
Herbert, Hon. A., M.P.
Hoare, Sir H. A., M.P.
Howard, James, M.P.
Illingworth, Alfred, M.P.
Johnson, Andren, M.P.
Kirk, William, M.P.
Lawson, Sir Wilfred, M.P.
Leatliam, E. A., M.P.
Lewis, J. D., M.P.
Lush, J. A., M.P.
Melly, George, M.P.
Miall, E., M.P.
Parry, Love Jones, M. P.
Philips, R. N., M.P.
Potter, E., M.P.
Rylands, Peter, M.P.
Samuelson, B., M.P.
Samuelson, H., M.P.
Simon, 31 r. Serjeant, M.P.
Shaw, IL, M.P.
Sartoris, E. J., M.P.
Sherriff, A. C., M.P.
Stepney, Colonel, M.P.
Stevenson, J. C., 31. P.
Sykes, Colonel, 31. P.
Taylor, P. A., 31.P.
Villiers, Right Hon. C. P., M.P.
AVedderburn, David, 31. P.
AVlialley, 31r., M.P.
White, James, 31. P.
AVhitworth, Thos., 31. P.
Weguelin, T. 31., M.T.
�5
DELEGATES FROM THE BRANCHES.
Ashton-under-Lyne—
Green, Thomas, M.A.
BathDalrymple, D., M.P.
Edwards, R. P.
Maenaught/Rev. J., M.A.
Mureh, Aiderman Jerom, J.P.
Banbury—
Tin* Worshipful the Mayor
Brookes, R. H.
Carter, Rev. L. G.
Griftin, Dr., J.P.
Turner, Rev. J.
BedfordHill, Rowland
Ransom, Edwin
Belper—
\
Cox, J. Charles, J.P.
Birkenhead—
Billson, Alfred
Cooke, Bancroft
Cowie, Alfred
Stitt, Samuel
Birmingham—
The Worshipful the Mayor
(Thomas Prime, Esq.)
Dixon, George, M.P.
Bunce, J. Thackray, E.S.S.
Brown, Rev. J. J.
Chamberlain, Councillor Joseph
Collings, Councillor Jesse
Clarke, Rev. Charles, F.R.L.S.
Dawson, George, M.A.
Field, Alfred
Hadley, Felix
Harris, Councillor William
Hayes, E. J.
Jaffray, John, J.P.
Lloyd, Councillor G. B.
Martineau, R. F.
Middlemore, Win. J.P.
Osler, Follett, F.R.S.
Philli] is, Aiderman, J.P.
Timmins, Samuel, F.R.S.L.
Vince, Rev. Charles
Wright, J. S.
All Saints’ Ward—
Pay ton, Henry
Rolason, Councillor
B 3
Birmingham (Continued)—
Deritend Ward—
Eliaway, H. H.
Griffiths, Thomas
Hawkes, W. C.
Dviideston Ward—Ingall, George
Hampton Ward—■
Barratt, Dr. A.
Biddle, J.
Mills, W.
St. Martin’s Ward—
Bennett, W. P.
Gosling, Wm.
St. Pavi/s Ward—
Edwards, Mr. Councillor C. H.
Manton, Mr. Alderman
St. Peter’s Ward—
Adams, Francis
Deykin, Councillor
Gosling, Alfred
Whitlock, H. J.
Sr. Thomas’ Ward—
•
Baker, George
Mann, Robert
Brown, Charles
Bai.sall Heath—
Holland, Aiderman
Flint Glass Makers’ Associa
tion (T. J. Wilkinson, &'.'.)
Bolton
Lee, Henry
Winkworth, Stephen
BradfordHolden, (’ouneillor Angus
Illingworth, Alfred, M.P.
Brighton—
Burrows, J. C., J.P.
Creak, A., M.A.
Clark, A., B.A.
Davey, Councillor
Mackenzie, W.
Pettitt, W.
Tapper, Rev. Dr.
Wood, Councillor
White, James, M.P.
�c
Bristol—
Darwen-
Caldicott, Rev. J. W., M.A.
Gotch, Rev. F. W., LL.I>.
James, Rev. W.
Pease, Tlios.
Thomas, Herbert, J.P.
Baron, Joshua, J.P.
Dunmock, James
McDougall, Rev. James
DenbighWright, Robert
Bromsgrove—
Derby—
Macdonald, A.
Seroxton, Mr.
Beswick, G.
Brown, William
Renals, Aiderman J.
Burslem—
Devonport
Woodall, Wm.
The Worshipful the Mayor
(J. Rolston, Esq.,'M. DA
Lewis, Mr., M.P.
Bawling, S. B.
BuryPhilips, R. N., M.P.
Canterbury—
Dewsbury—
The Worshipful the Mayor
(Henry Hart, Esq.)
Brent, Aiderman
• ’ooper, John R.
Cromwell, Rev. Dr.
Hamilton, R.
Joyce, James
Peirce, J. H.
Clarke, John
Kilner, William
Dukinfleld Bucklev, N.
Marshall, William
Dudley—
Cochrane, Aiderman, J.P.
Robinson, Rev. Wade
CarlislePotter, E. Esq., M,P.
Howard, Hon. George
Sutton, William
Edgbaston—
Kenrick, Timothy, J.P.
Carmarthen
Exeter—
Sartoris, E. J., M.P.
Stepney, Colonel, M.P.
Bowring, Sir John
Norrington ('ouncillor
Carnarvon—
Falmouth—
Evans, Rev. E.
Fox, Howard. J.P.
M illmore, Arthur
Cheltenham—
Halifax
Onley, Samuel
Bubb, J.
Hutchinson, Alderman, J. D., J.P.
Shaw, Aiderman, J.P.
Scarbrough, T. S.
Chesham—
Carr, Rev. John
Cave, James
Hawkes, C.
Plato, C.
Rose, D.
Rose, G.
ChesterBeckett, Joseph
Parish, W.. ex-Sheriff
CoventryBray, Charles
Cash, Councillor John
Handsworth—
Ann, Rev. Robert
Harborne—
Newey, C. J.
! Hastings—
I
Banks, John
Hinckley Atkins, John
Atkins, Thomas
Burrows, Rev. Mr.
Davis, Samuel
Perkins, Rev. Mr.
�Huddersfield—
The Worshipful the Mayor
Dodds, John
.Mellor, Wright, J.P.
Skilliek, R.
Huntingdon—
Millard, Rev. J. IL, B.A.
Hyde—
Adamson, Daniel
Dowson, Rev. H. E., B.A.
Hibbert, Edward
Hibbert, John
Robinson, Rev. T., B.A.
Herefordspem-er, Philip Russell
IpSWichJones, Rev. E.
Maude, Rev. F. H.
Notcutt, S. A., jun.
Rees, Ml’.
Zincke, Rev. F. Barham, M.A.
Kendal—
Busher, Edward
Russell, Rev. John
Swinglehurst, Henry
Thompson, William
Leeds—
The. Worshipful the Mayor
(W. G. Joy, Esq.)
Barran, Aiderman
Clarke, F. R.
Crowther, William, J.P.
Lupton, Joseph
LeicesterTim Worshipful the Mayor
(G. Stevenson, Esq.)
Coe, Rev. C. C.
Harley, Rev. Robert, F.R.S.
Hodges, T. W., J.P.
Paget, T. T., High Sheriff
Walker, William Henry
LondonAllan, William
Alder, T. P.
Applegarth, R.,
Atkinson, Rowland
Beales, Edmond, M.A.,
Bennett, W. C., LL.D.
Botlv, William
Bovill, W. J.
Brenehley, Julius
B 4
London (continued )—
Buekmaster, T. C.
Chunrock, E. J., M.A.
Church, R. H.
Clayden, Rev. P. W.
Courtenay, J. 1.
Cremer, W. R.
Crompton, Henry
Cunnington, John
Dilke, Sir C. W.. Bart., M.P.
Dodds, George Will.,
Edwards, J. P.
Emerson, F. R.
Evans, Howard
Fooks, W. C., jun., LL.B.
Fry, Herbert
Goodwin, Rev. Dr.
Galpin, T. 1).
Guile, Daniel
Hill, A. H.
Hoare, Sir H. A., Bart., M.P.
Hole, James
Holyoake, G. J.
Hoppus, John, LL.D., F.R.S.
Howell, George
Herbert, Hon. A., M,P.
Hodgson, Dr.
Hansard Rev. S.
Hales, John
lerson, Rev. IL, B.A.
Jones, Lloyd
Levi, Professor, Leone
Lushington, G.
Mackay, C., LL.D.
Middlemore, J. T.
Miall, E., M.P.
McClelland, Janies
Moore, S. P., LL.B.
Motterslmad, T.
Nasmith, I)., LL.B.
Odger, George
Pare, William, F.S.S.
Parry, L. J., M.P.
Payne, J.
Pennington, Frederick
Price, Richard
Rawlinson, Sir Christopher, C.B.
Robson, John, B.A.
Robertson, Professor C.
Russell, R.
Sliaen, William
Shortt, John, LL.B.
Slack, H. J.
Stanesby, H. J.
Somes, George
Taylor, P. A., M.P.
Varley, C.
�8
London (eoìithiucd)—
Webster, Thomas, Q.C.
Williams, Robert
Worley, A. E.
Bloomsbury—
Johnson, E.
Miller, Rev. AV.
Young, Sir George, Bart.
Camden—
Bottomley, J. F.
Shoveller, John
Chelsea—
Armstrong, IT. Stephen
Beales, Edmond, M.A.
Boyd, John
Davis, .Mr.
Finch, AV. Newton
Jet! lies, John
Jones, P.
Liggett, Mr.
Pite, H. G.
Sellis, Win.
Symes, Chas.
Deptford—
Smiles, R.
Matthews, A.
Greenwich—
Bell, John, M.A.
Bennett, AV. C., LL.D.
Goodwin, Rev. Thomas, LL.D.
Hackney—
Aspland, Dr.
< Tennell, Air.
Fretwell, J., jun.
Green, C. E.
Aliali, Rev. William
Hiding, B. S.
Pieton, Rev. J. A., ALA.
Kensington—
Gladstone, Dr. J. IL, F.R.S.
Heywood, James, ALA., F.R.S.
Lobley, J. Logan, F.G.S.
AleClelland, Jas., J.P., F.R.A.S.
Osborne, John
Reade, Rev. C. Darby
Lambeth—
Alder, T. P.
Emblin, R.
Greenstreet, T.
Gibbons, G.
Hearson, Rev. G.
Mottershead, T.
Sayer, AV.
I London (continued}—
Stainsby, D.
Silvester, H. R.
Taylor, S. S.
Wèrley, A. E. T.
Marylebone—
Guedalla, J.
Pratt, Alagee
North London—
Bartram, Richard
Clarke, T. C.
Geikie, Rev. C.
Glover, R. R.
Hooper, AV. B.,
Hickson, G.
Lueraft, B.
Freedy, A.
Preston, J. T.
Sinclair, R.
Spicer, Henry, jun., B.A.
Tit ford, A.
AVade, J. M.
AVright, G. W.
AVilson, George
Peckham—
Yeats, Dr.
Westminster—
Beal, James
Carr, J. T.
Courtney, G. J.
Ely, Air.
McDonald, C.F.
Alilligan, Air. '
Noble, John
Tufnell, Air.
West Ham—
Johnson, A., ALP.
Godlee, L.
Woolwich, Plumstead, and
Charlton—
Noble, John
Pike, Rev. J. B.
Richards, Rev. J.
Wates, Joseph
AVliite, George
Lichfield—
< hawner, R. C.
< ïosskey, Rowland, ex-Mayor
Al<• Lean, J. C.
Liverpool—
Frange, Councillor F. G.
Sinclair, Air.
Thomas, John
�9
Manchester—Bazley, C. H. J.P.
Alathews, Rev. E., M.A.
Rumney, Alderman
Steinthal, Rev. S. A.
Middlesborough—
Jones, John
Williams, E.
(Rover, R. R.
N ewcastle-on-Tyne—
( 'owen, J., M.P.
Cowen, J., jun.
Hengel], Win. M.
Rutherford, Dr.
Street, Rev. J. C.
Newport—(Isle of Wight)
< 'olman, Alfred
Pierce, John
Norwich-
Cooper, R. A.
NorthamptonHarris, Henry
North ShieldsHudson, Thomas
N ottingham—
Cox, Sami.
Ellis, Edward John
Eelkin, William, F.L.S.
Felkin, Fredk.
Clipper, Edward
Hollins, Mr.
Paget, Charles, J.P.
Rothera, G. B.
Oldbury—
Jubb, Rev. W. W.
Stableford, W.
Wheeler, John
OxfordHarcourt, Vernon, M.P.
Peterboro’
Taylor, Benjamin
Plymouth—
Anthonv, Rev. F. E., M.A.
Collier, W. F.
Reading—
'Elie Worshipful the Mayor
(T. Spokes, Esq.)
Culpin, Thos.
Stevenson, Rev. F.
Rochester—
The Worshipful the Mayor
Aveling, Thos., ex-Mayor
Aveling, Dr.
Belsev, J.
Belsey, F. F.
Boon, James
Bullbrook, Councillor
Coles, Aiderman
Edwards, Mr.
Fond, J. R.
Hanhain, C. F.
Jellie, Rev. W. H.
Knighton, Dr.
Naylor, Aiderman
Steele, Dr.
Warne, T. S.
Wyles, Thomas
SalisburyJones, Rev. W.
Short. Geo., B.A.
Williams, Charles
Sheffield—
Allott, Councillor
Beal, Councillor
Bragge, William, F.R.G.S.
Drontield, Mr.
Griliitlis, Dr.
Knox, G. Walter, B.Se.
Short, Rev. J. Lettis
Shrewsbury—
Stephens, R.
Southampton—
Maxse, Captain, R.N.
South ShieldsCowen, .Josh., jun.
Edgar, John
Stafford—
The Worshipful the Mayor
Stockport—
The Worshipful the Mayor
Black, Rev. James, M.A.
Coppock, Major
Howard, Alderman
The Town Clerk
Walthew, Aiderman
Stourbridge—
Maginnis, Rev. D.
StroudCooper, Wm.
�10
Tipton—
Blackburn, Rev. F. <'.
Tynemouth
Hudson, T.
Walsall—
The Worshipful the Mayor
(AV. B. Duignan, Esq.)
Cotterell, G.
Holden, E. T.
Warrington—
'file Worshipful the Mayor
(C. J. Holmes, Esq.)
Long, William, jun.
Milner, Edward
Rylands, Peter, M.P.
West Bromwich
Jukes, .1. G.
Kerni< k, J. Arthur, J.P.
West Kent—
Bird, G.
Bedell, Mr.
Coombs, Rev. J. Wilson, B.A.
Howard, James, M.P.
Miall, Edward, M.P.
Offor, George
< )utram, G. E.
Thomjison, C. W.
Todd, AV.
Whitehead, James
Winchfield Kingsley, Rev. Canon
Wolverhampton—
The Worshipful the Mayor
(Thomas Bantock, Esq.
Eelkin, Robert
Glittery, Rev. Thomas
Horton, Rev. Tlios. G.
Hatton, William
Loveridge, H.
Mander, S. S.
’Walton, Frederick
Wiguelin, T. W., M.P.
Worcester—
Airev, J. F.
MacLean, Councillor
Sherritf, A.
M.P.
Woodward, Francis
Williamson, Count illor
WindsorBrowning, Oscar, M.A.
Chamberlain, T., ex-Mavor
Grove, H. J.
Harris, AV. H., B.A., F.G.S.
Platt, J.
The Deputation was introduced by Mr. Dixon", M.P., Chairman
of the Council of the League, who spoke as follows :—Mr.
Cladstone, my Lord de Grey, and Mr. Forster,—The Deputa
tion which I have now the honour of introducing to you
consists of about four hundred gentlemen collected from about
seventy different localities, and including thirty Members of Par
liament and twelve Mayors. These, sir, are the representatives
present here to-day of the National education League, a body
which has been in existence only a very few months ; but. during
that time it has grown into an organisation of unusual magnitude
and power, such as will be described to you by the Chairman of
the Executive Committee, Mr. Joseph Chamberlain.. It is about
twelve months since this organisation was projected by a few
gentlemen in Birmingham, unknown beyond their immediate
locality, and who were mainly distinguished by their earnest
perseverance and by their strong conviction of the importance of
the principles that they entertain. (Applause.) Those principles
�were, that it was the duty of the State to see to the education of
every child in the country, and that that was to be effected by a
combination of rates and taxes administered by local management,
with central executive inspection, and strong control. (Applause.)
It was believed that this could best be carried out by making the
schools both free and unsectarian—(hear, hear, and applause)—and
requiring that attendance at these schools should l)e made com
pulsory on the children. (Cheers.) 1 may mention, sir, that the
.Executive Committee of the League, upon its formation, was over
whelmed by applications from all parts of the country to attend
meetings, and explain more particularly the objects of the League.
I myself attended upwards of twenty of such meeting's in the most
important localities in the country, and it will be interesting to
you, sir, to know that, although it is true that at those meetings
I did not find myself surrounded by many Conservatives—they are
generally adverse to great changes—(laughter)—though I. did not
find myself accompanied on to the platform by many members of
those Churches whose vested interests seemed to be attacked, yet 1
did find that those meetings were thronged by three important
classes. The Nonconformists were always there in great force—
(applause) those leaders of the great Liberal party, who on all
great occasions make themselves prominent, were never found
wanting ; and behind those bodies we found the working classes
assembled in constantly increasing numbers. All this led me to
the conclusion that, if this agitation were to he continued for
another twelve, months—(cheers)—it would be more than probable
that in all the Liberal boroughs of the empire we should find that
the majority of the voters would be associated with this great
organisation, in carrying out what they conceived to be, not merely
the question of the day, but the greatest one that has ever occupied
the attention of the people. I ought perhaps to say that upon one
point—that of free schools—the Leaguers are not quite unanimous;
but the people everywhere Lave endorsed the opinion of the
League; and also, 1 would say in addition, that with reference, to
the religious question, there is only a section of the League that
has any difference of“ opinion, and this section takes up a still more,
advanced opinion than the great body of the Leaguers. (Applause.)
I have now the pleasure to call upon Air. Joseph ('hamberlain, the
Chairman of the Executive; Committee of the League, who will
address you upon the general question.
�12
Mr. Chamberlain : Mr. Gladstone, my Lord de Grey, and Mr.
F,,rster,—It is part ot‘ my business to make myself acquainted
with the general work of the League, to estimate its real strength,
and to study opinion throughout the country, as far as I can
correctly gather it from the reports of our branches. Now, of
those branches we have already established 114, and I believe
there is not a single important town in the kingdom which is not
in this way represented.
In connection with almost everyone of
those branches we have held large public meetings ; and, as I
have seen it said that a public meeting may be held on either side
of a great question, I should like to point out that our meetings
have been almost entirely open meetings, at many of which
amendments have been moved ; and 1 may also remark that many
of them have been town’s meetings. For instance, of this nature
was the large meeting which was held in the great Hall in
Birmingham, on Monday night, at which a resolution was almost
unanimously carried in favour of the points which I am about
to urge, and the Mayor of the town was requested to attend and
form part of this Deputation. There are two considerations to
which I should like to call your attention, as showing the strength
of this movement. In the first place, there is that point to which
Mr. Dixon has made allusion—namely, that this agitation is of
very recent and rapid growth. I should say that the League has
been officially constituted only live months, although the question
was first agitated in Birmingham twelve months ago ; but T am
quite sure that, if the Government entertain any doubt as to the
opinion of the country, and will give us a little time, longer—(loud
applause)—we will make that opinion sufficiently manifest. The
second point is, that this agitation is almost entirely voluntary. 1
say that, because I do not believe there is a man connected with
the League who has made one penny by his services in connection
with it. Almost the whole of the work—the work of speaking,
and an immense deal of secretarial work—has been done by
volunteers, and oidy for some of the clerical work have we paid,
and in the case of poor persons only have we made some compen
sation for the services which they have rendered ; but never more
1 believe, and in many cases much less, than they would have
earned in any other sphere of work. Now, we have received in
the course of our agitation the co-operation of the great trades
unions, and of almost all the leaders of the great trade societies in
�13
the kingdom ; and 1 believe I may say that there has never been
a meeting of working men called to consider this question at
which resolutions have not been passed in favour of the scheme
which we urge upon you. Also, we may fairly claim to represent
the great bodies of Nonconformists in this country ; but inasmuch
as they have established a separate organisation, I feel some
delicacy in speaking for them. Now, I will state very briefly the
points upon which we are agreed in dissenting from the principles
of the Government measure. The day after the Bill was intro
duced, the Officers issued a circular to all our branches, asking for
their opinions upon the subject, and the replies disclosed an
almost unanimous concurrence upon certain points. The earnestness
of this concurrence is manifested by the fact that not seventy, as
Nir. Dixon stated, but ninety-six branches are represented in the
present Deputation. They have come from as far north as Newcastle,
as far south as the Isle Of Wight, as far west as Falmouth, and as far
east as Ipswich. (Applause.) In the first place, we object to the
year’s delay. We think this would be merely to give twelve,
months to the Denominations to run a race of wasteful expenditure,
and to increase sectarian bitterness of feeling. Our remaining
objections may be almost summarised in a sentence. Wé object,
sir, to the permissive recognition of great principles; we ask that
the Government should decide those principles for the country ;
we ask that they should not leave them as controversies of annual
recurrence, and subject to varying, and sometimes contradictory,
conclusions. (Applause.) We object to the retention of school
fees ; we think that a free school is a necessary corollary to the
compulsory attendance of children ; we believe that it is impolitic
to ticket one class on account of their poverty—(applause)—and
we believe that it will be absolutely impracticable to define the
limit at which payment should properly be made. (Applause.)
But the strongest objections which we entertain are on the subject
of the permissive compulsion, and what I must be permitted to
call the permissive sectarianism of the Bill. ()n these points there
is an absolute unanimity of opinion. We object to permissive
compulsion, because we say that the measure would only be
efficient in large towns, and that in other places it would not be
enforced—not because there is any sort of opposition to the
principle, but on account of a fear which many persons entertain
of any measure which in the slightest degree may increase the
�14
burden of the rates. Sir, we say that such Acts as Denison’s Act,
which lias been an utter failure, and the Free Libraries Act, which
has only been applied partially, are illustrations of the results of
such legislation. (A Voice : The Baths and Wash-houses also.)
Then, with reference to this permissive sectarianism, the Town
Councils object to it, and regret the importation of a new element,
causing their election to turn upon religious opinion, and not upon
personal fitness; and, when they are elected, dividing them into
two hostile camps. The Dissenters object to this measure, which
they conceive will hand over the education of this country to the
Church of England entirely in many parts of the kingdom,
especially in agricultural districts; and they think that it must
necessarily be followed by a measure which will hand over the
education of the people in 1 reland to the Church of Borne—(loud
applause)—and that in this way the influence, social and political,
of those two Churches will be unfairly increased. (Hear, hear.)
Further, we consider (that this Conscience Clause which is con
tained in the proposed Bill, or any Conscience Clause, will be
absolutely unsatisfactory. (Applause.) Where it is not needed,
there, Sir, it will be absolutely nugatory, because the parents will
not dare to make use of it; they will be afraid of placing
themselves, by signing such a document, under the ban of the
Squire and the Parson. (Cheers.) Besides, sir, we say that a
Conscience Clause of any kind does not touch the hardship of
which Dissenters complain—that the minority will in many
districts be taxed to pay for the support of schools which arc1 part
of the machinery for perpetuating doctrines to which they have a
conscientious objection. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, in conclusion,
1 have been instructed tn express a very earnest hope that the
Government, which secured the cordial and unwavering support of
the great majority of Liberal ('hurehmen, and of all the leading
Dissenting bodies in this country, in their effort to carry out the
principles of religious freedom and religious equality in Ireland
— (applause)—will not reject our petition for the application of
those principles to England and Wales, and that they will consent
to remove from what we all think otherwise a noble measure,
those, clauses which we conscientiously believe will inflict an
intolerable hardship and oppression upon a large class of the
community. (Loud applause.)
Sir Charles W. Dilke : Air. Gladstone, my Lord de Grey,
�15
and Mr. Forster,—The point which has been entrusted to me to
bring before you to-day is that of permissive compulsion—of
the conflict between the principles of permissive and of direct
general compulsion. Now, the fact of Mr. Chamberlain having
so fully stated the views of the League upon that point, and also
the fact that you have thought it right, and the Cabinet have
thought it right, to insert a principle of direct compulsion in
some shape in the Bill, clear my task is so considerably that I
think it will be necessary that I should speak only upon the per
missive character of the compulsion which is proposed. It will not
be necessary that I should say anything with regard to the neces
sity, or with regard to the justifiableness, of compulsion in general,
because those, are admitted by the insertion of the principe in the
Bill. But what I would wish, on behalf of the Deputation, and on
behalf particularly of the London Branch, in whose name I speak,
to call your attention to is, not that we feel, or are able to say, that
it might not have been right in the Government to insert some con
dition with regard to compulsion—we feel it might be proper, in
the state of public feeling on compulsion, that some condition
should have been inserted by way of a test which should be prece
dent to compulsion being required ; but we feel (and 1 think 1
speak the opinion of the whole Deputation on this point) that the
condition which is made precedent to the application of compulsion
is a condition which is wholly a bad one. Compulsion is a
matter which concerns attendance and attendance only, and the
conditition by which, under tlie Bill, compulsion is to be applied
is one which concerns not attendance, but school accommodation.
You make, in this Bill, one condition hinge upon another; you
say that where there is a deficiency of school accommodation, and
there only, you will have permissive compulsion. Well, even in
that case, the compulsion is permissive—and permissive with
whom ? It is permissive in the country with Boards which will
be chiefly composed of farmers. (Hear, hear.) That is to say,
Boards composed of persons who have a direct interest in seeing
that the compulsion is not applied. In the towns those Boards
will be Boards which, whatever their merits or demerits may be,
are bodies which very naturally have a strong opinion against any
temporary increase of the rates, and thus you give permissive
powers to Boards who will consider less the ultimate decrease of
the rates than the immediate increase which will result upon the
�1G
principle of compulsion being applied. Well, but we go much
farther than this, and we object altogether to the permissive
legislation of which this Bill is full. As Mr. Chamberlain has
pointed out, the Deputation, and the League generally, object
not merely to permissive compulsion, they object to permissive
free schools and to permissive religion—(applause)—as well as
permissive compulsion. We feel that either compulsion is right
or wrong. By putting it in the Bill you have acknowledged it is
right. If it is right, then, it should be declared to be right by
the Imperial Legislature, and if it is wrong it should not be
placed in a Government Bill. What we ask is, that compulsion
should not be left to Local Boards of any kind or however con
stituted, but that if you are to have compulsion at all, it should
not depend upon local bias, but it should l>e imposed upon the
people by the act of the Imperial Legislature. (Loud applause.)
Mr. Mundella (M.P. for Sheffield): Mr. Gladstone, my Lord
de Grey, and Mr. Forster.—The few remarks which I shall detain
you with will have reference to the effect of compulsion as an
educational power. In the first place, I believe that it is the
experience of all those who have seen the influence of education
abroad, that without compulsion nothing like a good education is
secured. However much you may cover the land with schools,
however ample, the provision may be that you may make for those
schools, as in Ame rica, as in France, indeed, and as in Holland,
the results will be altogether inadequate to your efforts unless you
make it the absolute duty of the parent that the child’shall be in
attendance, regularly and consecutively, for a certain number of
years. My attention was first drawn to this by reason of the fact
that I am an employer of labour abroad, that I have seen the
working of this system in Switzerland and Germany ; and I have
seen its contrast, too, in Holland and in France. I am conscious,
also, of what is going on in America, and I am bouud to say that
although America has made the most ample provision of any
country in the world for schools, yet American education, instead
of progressing, is on the decline. I received only a few days ago
a report from the State of Massachusetts. Compulsion may be
practically said to be, in America, permissive, as it would be under
this Bill. In the city of Lowell, the compulsory powers aie carried
out as effectually as they can be : 90 per cent, of the children are
in school. Tn the city of Fall Biver. on the other hand, in the
�17
same State, tlie compulsory powers have been altogether neglected,
as the School Boards confess, and the result is that 50 per cent, of
the children are out of school. (Cheers.) Now, I am sure it
must have been said to you often, and you must have often read
it, that we exaggerate the educational destitution of this country.
Sir, I believe it is impossible to describe it, much less to exag
gerate it; and I believe those reports which we are all anxiously
looking for from the Privy Council, on the state of education in
the four largest cities in the M idland Counties and the North, will
more than corroborate what 1 say, and that when the} arc pio
duced they will be the most black and appalling page in the
history of our country. So far from education progressing in this
country, I believe it is not progressing in the same ratio as the
population, and that we are raising around us a mass of ignorance,
pauperism, and crime which is a disgrace to us as a Christian
people. (Loud applause.) I am glad to say that this is not
exclusively a Liberal question—(hear, hear)—or a Dissenters
question, for 1 have in my possession at this moment some dozen
letters from clergymen of the Church of England, managers of the
largest schools in England—one of whom has a school of 1,-00
children—and they all, with one exception, say to me: “Me
agree with you: we must have compulsion, or we shall have
nothing effectual ; and we are quite prepared for a separation of
the religious teaching.” (Loud applause.) Now, if we can only
introduce that sort of kindly spirit into this controversy, that ve
are all willing not to urge the teaching of those things on which
we differ, but those on which we agree—(applause)—and to insist
upon the attendance of children; if you, sir, will only make it
absolute that it is the right and the appanage of every child in this
country to receive the highest education that can lie gii en
(applause)—because, Sir, we must set up a high ideal ; we mud
not compare ourselves with ourselves, but we must compare ouiselves with those great nations that for thirty or forty years hare
adopted compulsory education, and have thereby produced the
most marvellous and extraordinary results. We must not, as
Englishmen, be content with anything short of wliat they have
attained.
Mr. Gladstone : Which nations, Mr. Mundella ?
Mr. Mundella : Prussia, Saxony, Wurtemburg, Switzerland.
Baden Baden.
�18
A Voice: Holland.
Mr. Mlndella : No ; Holland is not' compulsory. But I will
speak of the great North German Confederation as affording the
model-tlie high ideal-of what we must and ought to attain to in
education
Sir 1 have wandered from one end of Saxony to.
another, I have been through Prussia and in many of its latest
departments, and I could not find an ignorant child, go where I
might (Loud applause.) It is not only that they are not ignorant,
or that, hke our own children, they have attained to the readin" of
a signboard or the scrawling of a name-that is not education—
that is not the education which they have enjoyed; but it is an
education that is useful to them in its culture and in its assistance to
them m acquiring knowledge in every relation of life. (Loud
applause.) Sir, I say if you confer that blessing upon English
children great as have been all the works that you have done
before-(loud and prolonged applause)-great as is the promise
and the hope of what you will do-(cheers)-vour name will be
associated with a still greater work-with the greatest blessinwhich can descend from generation to generation upon the people
of this country. (Loud and prolonged applause).
Mr. Robert Applegarth : My only desire for troubling you
with any remarks on this occasion is on account of the great de
termination there is on the part of the working classes to speak for
emselves on these great questions. (Hear, hear). They feel that
hitherto the upper and the middle classes have spoken on their
»‘half, perhaps too much, and that they have said too little for
enise ves. Me hold that on the education question we have
been grossly misrepresented. Lord Robert Montagu has spoken
m the name of the working classes, the Archbishop of York has
spoken, Lord Marlborough has spoken, and many such gentle
men—(laughter and applause)—whose good intentions 1 do not
questson, but whose knowledge of our wants and requirements I
do question very much. (Hear, hear). They have said we wanted
what we do not want, and they have said we are satisfied with
what we are very discontented with. (Laughter and applause),
he Kev. Canon Beechey says—speaking of the miners of this
country-that they would strike against compulsion. Now, against
that statement I protest as a falsehood. (Laughter, and cries of
) \\ ell, that is a strong word to use., I admit ; but it is un
true, and the truth should be spoken. (Laughter and applause).
�19
The miners of this country have met in conference by their dele
gates, and they have declared—not that they wanted more wages,
not that they wanted shorter working hours, or any special remedy
of that sort ; but the lirst and most important tiling they have de
clared is, that they must have compulsory education for their chil
dren. (Loud applause.) Sir, the working classes throughout the
country have long declared in favour of compulsory education, and
I should be sorry to be regarded as speaking in the name of those
that I know little about; but my claim in speaking for the work
ing classes is that 1 have worked with them and tor them all the
days of my life, and I would not for one moment say on their be
half what 1 did not conscientiously believe they would desire me
to say. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps Mr. burster will tell me, as he
has told me before, that there is a large class in whose name the
representatives of our class generally cannot speak. M ell, I can
only say that, having worked for and with the better part of my
class all my life, I am in at least as good a position as Lord 1\obert
Montagu, or the Duke of Marlborough, or the Archbishop of < can
terbury, to speak on behalf of that class ; and I say that from the
miners up to the most skilled artisans of the country, they have all
declared in favour of compulsory education. As an instance, I may
mention that, last Thursday, I was in Glasgow ; there were 1,000
men crowded into a large room, and they were drawn together
under circumstances of a most unfortunate kind, because they were
engaged in discussing the whys and wherefores of a strike not the
best circumstances under which to take into consideration the ques
tion of education. Hut having been invited to speak to them, and
having said what I had to sayr with reference to their dispute, I asked
permission to turn that strike meeting into an education meeting.
(Loud applause.) It was unanimously' accorded, and, after having
spoken to them, I asked them if they' would embody their opinions
in the form of a resolution, and the following is the resolution that
was passed :—“ That this meeting of operative carpenters and
joiners, of Glasgow, expresses its cordial sympathy with the work
men of England and Wales in their efforts to obtain the establish
ment of a compulsory, secular, and free system of National
Education, and we hereby pledge ourselves to use our influence to
assist them in their endeavours.” Well, now, that is the way’ in
which the working classes have spoken, to my certain knowledge,
for the last fourteen years. It is now some fourteen years ago that
�20
1 first ventured to speak to a body of workmen on the question of
education ; and, I care not whether it has been in connection with
strikes or with any other business, I have always endeavoured to
put in the thin edge of the education wedge, and I have been con
tinually driving it home ever since. (Laughter and applause). But
the one question upon which they have been unambiguous is this
question of compulsion. (Applause). It is no answer to our ap
plication, to our appeal, to tell us that the Union, on the other
hand, has made a counter demand; I submit that such a list of
names as the. Union musters in their sheets, is not an answer to the
demand on the part of the working classes of this country. It
may be well for the Archbishop of York, or the Duke of Marl
borough, or Lord Robert Montagu to say we do not want compul
sion ; but what do we say for ourselves ? We say we want it, and
what is more, I mean to say, with all respect, that in the end we
will have it. (Laughter and applause). We intend to agitate until
we do get it, and, further, we think we have a lair claim upon the
present Government. (Loud applause). During the last election
we lent our best exertions to move the public and to get that noble
majority from which we hope so much in the present and in the
future—(applause)—and we hope to get in return the best assist
ance from the Liberal party to obtain for us that which we require.
On these grounds, I say, we have a claim that the present Govern
ment shall do something in the way of granting what we ask for.
In conclusion, I would simply say again what I have already stated
before, that hitherto our names have been used by those who
know too little about us to be able to state what our wants are;
and in that view we have made up our minds, upon this and every
other great question, to speak for ourselves. (Loud applause).
Rev. S. A. Steixtiial (of Manchester) : I represent the branch
of the League in Manchester and the neighbourhood, embracing
nearly the whole of the manufacturing district of South Lancashire,
and including a considerable portion of Cheshire and other districts
in that neighbourhood ; and I have to speak, sir, upon one point
on which Mr. Dixon has told you there exists some difference of
opinion amongst the leaders of the League. I happen not to be
amongst those, but I represent those who follow, and amongst
them there is no difference of opinion on the subject of the
freedom of schools. 1 have had an opportunity, as Secretary of
our Manchester District Branch, to address a large number of
�21
meetings, comprised, generally speaking, ol‘ the working claesss of
our district, and everywhere there has been the strongest feeling
that the plan suggested by the Government is a dangerous method
of meeting the difficulty with regard to the payment of fees. It
has been felt that, by the plan proposed in the Government Bill,
there would be the greatest danger of introducing a pauper spirit
where it does not yet exist—(applause)—while if the schools were
opened free to all classes of tin1 community, and all were placed
upon an equal footing, there would be no danger of sapping the
independence of the community. But, on the other hand, if you
do make it compulsory upon those whose circumstances are poor to
come before a Board and show their poverty, and prove it, in order
to escape the payment of as small a sum as sixpence per week, you
have certainly done that which will undermine their sense of
independence, and teach them to apply to Boards for help in
matters connected with their personal expenditure. (Applause).
And, sir, as we believe that independence of the population
will be best preserved by putting the maintenance of the schools
upon the local rates and upon the Government taxes, and as we
find the people nowhere averse to an increase of the rates in this
direction—for they are well aware of the economy that it ■will be
in so many others—we claim that, as these schools should be
entirely supported by public money, the public should be entitled
to their free use at all times. (Applause.)
Mr. Illingworth (of Bradford, M.P. for Knaresborough, : Air.
Gladstone, my Lord de Grey, and Air. Forster,—I have been
deputed to speak to the mode in which it is proposed to deal with
the religious difficulty in this Bill, and I believe I am giving
utterance to the convictions of the great Nonconformist bodies in
this country, and not of them only, but of all that worthy section
of Episcopalian and other Churches who join with us in all
Liberal movements, when I express a strong feeling of regret that
there, is not a clear enunciation of sound principle in the Bill upon
ecclesiastical and religious matters, when the groundwork which
was laid down in the last session of Parliament seems to have
been forgotten both in its inception and in its results ; and that,
further, between the two parts of the Bill—one part having refer
ence to existing schools, and the other to the schools to be created
by public money, and to be directly under public control—there
ought to have been a greater distinction drawn than that which
�oo
prevails in tlie Government Bill. Dissenters will be disposed to
recognise rights in existing schools on the part of a class which it
would be impossible they could consider for one moment in ratecreated and publicly-managed schools ; but, so far as the existing
schools are concerned, the universal feeling is that nothing of the
character of a Conscience Clause, according to its present or almost
any possible, acceptation, will be of the slightest use. (Hear, hear.)
I wish to draw attention to this fact, that there is in existence
what is called a national system of education in Ireland, governed
by national conscience, and that in that system the religious rights
of the minority have been protected. And why ! Because the
minority of Ireland happen to be connected with the governing
body in England, and therefore it is that their rights have been
thought of and effectually guarded. Now, we ask a reference on
the part of the Government to the working of that measure, and
to the particular provisions of the Irish system; and we say surely,
after having done, as Nonconformists, what we did last session
towards the bringing about of that happy condition in Ireland in
which the State minds its own business and leaves the religious
bodies to manage theirs—(applause)—we ask that in England equal
rights may be conceded, and that not suing in forma pauperis—
(heai1, hear)—nor any longer accepting the crumbs that fall from
the table—(applause)—but as sitting ourselves at the table, we
claim equal rights. (Loud applause.) 1 have the honour of being
one of tin* constituents of my right honourable friend Mr. Forster,
and no one can have a higher regard for him than I have, and,
indeed, for all the members of the Cabinet. I believe they are
about the best men that ever a party was asked to follow. (Loud
applause.) But, at the. same time, that does not exclude us from
stating with great respect, but with great candour, our demands
upon this question, and we say it is impossible for any satisfaction
to ensue from the carrying of this measure, because it does not
provide for that separation of religious teaching which I have
before pointed out. With that the demands of the Dissenters will
cease. They will ask equal rights with all other religious bodies,
and they look forward to a time when a. controlling national
system of education shall educate all the children of the land.
(Loud applause.)
The Rev. F. Barham Zincke (Chaplain to the Queen) : Mr.
Gladstone, my Lord de Grey, and Air. Forster,—Mr. Mundella
�23
says that this is not a Nonconformist question. I rise as a member
of the Established Church, and as the Chairman of the Ipswich
Committee, upon which two other clergymen of the Established
Church sit, to state that it is our opinion that the time lias now
come when the question of religious teaching should be settled in
a different manner from that by which it is proposed to be settled
in this Bill. We think that that time has come, because to
whatever part of the country we look we see indications in favour
of our opinions. (Applause.) 1 need not enter into particulars.
We know that it is so in Wales, we know that it is so in Scotland,
we know that we must do nothing in this country which will
endanger the national system in Ireland—(applause)—we know
that large bodies of the inhabitants of this country, such as
Nonconformists and the artisan class, whom we have represented
here to-day, are in favour of dealing with the religious question in
a manner different from that in which it is dealt with by this Bill.
We know that if it is dealt with in the manner proposed, a
variety of great evils will immediately follow ; we know that it will
produce an enormous amount of animosity—(hear, hear)— and of ill
blood in every borough and in every rural district in the country.
We know, too, when we look at what is passing in our great
English Universities, and what we have lately heard coming from
Trinity College, Dublin, that people’s minds are changing upon
this subject; and with reference to my own mind, speaking as a
member of the Established Church, I should feel no fear for the
cau^e of religion or for the cause of the Established Church, not
merely if we went as far as it is proposed to go, but even if we
went further—as far as appears to be required by the principality
of Wales. (Applause.) I think that the strength of the Church
does not consist in arrangements which were made centuries ago,
and have come down to us from a time when the political situation
was very different from that of the present day, and when all the
conditions of the question were very different. But it must
depend upon the estimate in which the Church is held by the
people; and if religious teaching is separated from secular, then
the country will feel that there is a great work to be done by the
clergy, and I believe that in the present temper of the clergy they
would do it heartily. What would be the result ? Why, then
the people would feel more respect and more gratitude and more
affection for the clergy than they do at the present. That would
�form a secure basis on which to rest the Establishment, ami that
is the only basis upon which, 1 think, in these days it can stand.
(Loud applause.)
The Rev. Charles Vince (Nonconformist .Minister) : Mr. Glad
stone, Mr. Forster, and Lord de Grey,—I should like to say that
the treatment of the religious difficulty has been put as the last
point to be spoken upon to-day, not because we consider it the
least important, but because we consider it the most important.
Many of us feel that the proposed treatment of the religious
difficulty is so unsatisfactory', that even it the other matters we
object to were adjusted to meet our wishes, we should still be
constrained to deprecate the passing of the Bill. (Applause.) I
should like, further, to say that our position of antagonism to Her
Majesty s Government is one that we did not anticipate, and now
we are forced into it we deeply lament it. Nothing, indeed, but
the strength and depth of our convictions as to the mischievous
results which will follow if this Bill becomes law in its present
form, would have induced us to come here in opposition to a
Ministry' whose advent to power was with some* of us the greatest
political joy' of our life. (Applause.) I would respectfully urge
that the religious difficulty is not met in the Bill, but is practically
ignored. The Imperial Parliament is asked not to decide the
matter, but to pass it on to a number of local Parliaments, in
which probably it will be perpetually discussed, but never finally
settled. (Applause.) AVe cannot see that there is the slightest
restriction put upon the power of the ►School Boards. They are at
liberty7, in establishing schools, to make them of what theological
colour and complexion they please, provided there is a Conscience
(Clause ; and, having determined to establish schools of such a
sectarian character as they deem fit, they have power to rate all
the inhabitants of the district for the maintenance of the schools.
The School Board in each district will be a Convocation—not
with the semblance of power, but with the reality of power.
(Applause.) It will be an ecclesiastical council, with authority to
determine what particular creed shall be exalted and endowed as
the creed of the State school in that particular district. I would
submit that no municipal or parochial body' was ever before
entrusted with such powers. A body invested with these preroga
tives by’ the Imperial Parliament cannot be annually elected
without strife and bitterness. It has been said that this will be
�the Church-rate contest over again. It will be so, with a very
important addition. The vestries in the Church-rate, contests had
to decide nothing about the services to be performed or the
doctrines to be taught; they had only to decide whether the
parish should be rated for the maintenance and repair of the
fabrics of the Episcopal Church. The School Board will have to
decide what doctrines shall be taught, and, therefore, it is the
Church-rate contest over again, with more important issues to be
determined, and, consequently, with greater danger of party strife
and bitterness. (Hear, hear.) We feel, sir, that our fears cannot
be denounced as chimerical. It cannot be said that we are going
simply upon conjecture, because there is the history of the past to
guide us. It has been well said that “ History is the Statesman's
book of prophecy.” With the history of the Church-rate contest
in our hands, one needs far less than a Statesman’s sagacity to
foresee what must be the issue of these contests for the election
of a body invested with the extraordinary functions which T think
I have fairly described. (Applause.) We feel, sir, that the
Conscience Clause does not meet the difficulty. There is one most
important class for whom no Conscience Clause is proposed.
There are two parties to be affected by these schools—the children
who will go to them, and ihe ratepayers who will have to support
them. Now, there is no Conscience Clause provided for the
protection of the ratepayers; and if, as is extremely probable
in certain districts, the rate-supported school should be a
sectarian school, then, as Mr. (’hamberlain has said, the
minority will be taxed to support the teaching of the religion
of the majority.
It is very certain that, if that state of
things is brought about by an Act of Parliament, we shall have
■distraints for school rates as we used to have distraints for (Ihurcli
rates. I fear there are many who would feel bound to take that
determined stand, because it is generally considered that the time
is passed by for ever for any man in England to be directly taxed
for the teaching of another man’s religion. (Applause.) I would,
moreover, respectfully submit that it is not merely contests between
Nonconformists and Episcopalians that are to be dreaded. I need
not say that the differences of opinion which have always been
more or less latent in the Episcopal Church are now developed
into great prominence, and are held and maintained with great
•earnestness. It is quite likely that, in certain districts, in the
�26
election of a Hoard there will he contests between different parties
in the Episcopalian Church, as well as contests between Noncon
formists and Episcopalians. (Laughter and applause.) English
(Christendom dees not increase in uniformity of opinion. (Laughter.)
I believe it does increase in unity of spirit. It seems to us that
the- proposal of Her Majesty’s Government for the treatment of
the religious difficulty will aggravate the evils incident to diversi
ties of opinion, and will aim a deadly blow at that charity of
spirit which increasingly prevails amongst all religious parties in
this country. (Loud applause.)
The Right Hon. W. E. Gladstone: Mr. Dixon and gentlemen,
—On behalf of my colleagues, Lord de Grey and Mr. Forster,
and on my own behalf, I wish to say that I have had great
pleasure in receiving, from so many sources, gentlemen of so
much weight and ability, and so various (if I may so say) in
colour upon many matters, and hearing from them the expression
of their views. You are much too well aware of the gravity of
the question at issue, and of the necessity of weighing with very
great care every resolution of the Government upon them, to
complain, I am quite sure, if I say that I think our business on
this occasion is to take the expression of your views for careful
scrutiny and consideration. (Applause.) But I should wish to
he quite sure that, as far at least as you are disposed to carry the
matter, 1 understand the nature of them; and I admit that
nothing can be clearer than that you take great objection to
several of the provisions that are contained in the Government
Bill. (Laughter.) But at the same time, I listened with great
comfort and satisfaction, not only to the general expressions of
good-will which you gave us—I am sure beyond our deserts—
(cries of “No”)—hut likewise to the declaration of Mr.
Chamberlain, who I may consider as in some sense being your
chairman—the representative of you all—who did not hesitate to
state that he thought in other matters, outside the limit of your
objections, the Bill may fairly he regarded as “ a noble measure.”
That admission on the one side—or rather that avowal, for I
won't call it an admission—together with the frank statement of
your difficulties upon the other, affords, I think a basis upon which
we cannot but hope that by our united efforts, and by a spirit at
once of firmness and conciliation in all quarters, we shall be able
to work out a result of which I won’t anticipate the precise con
�27
dition and details at present, because you know very well that we
have other matters in hand—(laughter)—which for the moment,
and for a few weeks to come, perhaps, will afford us plenty of care
and occupation. But now, with regard to your particular views
upon the points that have been raised, there are two upon which
I should, for the satisfaction of my own mind (I don’t know
whether Lord de Grey and Mr. Forster would like to put any
other question), like to be clear as to what your views are. I have
not quite distinctly gathered the manner in which you would
propose to deal with existing schools. You have stated, I think,
very distinctly, through the mouths of several speakers, that you
do not approve of the Conscience Clause inserted in the Bill;
not so much on account of the particular form of that clause, but
because you mistrust altogether, and are inclined, I think, almost
to repudiate—(applause and laughter)—anything in the nature of
a Conscience Clause. (Applause.) Now, if that be so, do I
understand that you, Mr. Dixon, or Mr. Chamberlain, as far as
you can venture to speak, wish me to understand that in dealing
with existing schools all through the country, your term of dealing
with them would be that they should receive no aid from rates—
(a voice, “ Or taxes ”)—or from the Privy ('ounc.il—(cries of “ No,
no ”)—that they should receive no aid from rates excepting upon
the terms of conforming to your basis ; so that the basis of all
schools aided by rates should be one and uniform throughout the
country I (Hear, hear.) Do I understand that to be the opinion
of the meeting generally?
Mr. Dixon : 1, perhaps, had better tell Mr. Gladstone what, so
far as I know, is the prevailing sentiment with reference to the
existing schools. It is, that there should be separate religious
teaching, as a condition of the further grants which it is proposed
under this Bill to make to them; and that with reference to th«
new schools which may be provided out of the rates, those schools
shall be entirely unsectarian. (Applause.)
Mr. Gladstone : Then the existing schools might differ from
the new schools, in respect of their having separate religious
teaching ?
Mr. Dixon : ()f their own denomination.
Mr. Mvndella : At separate hours.
Mr. Gladstone : I understand that: but that teaching must be
confined to particular hours. (Applause.) Then, with regard to the
�28
power of the Local Boards as to religion : certainly, I think if any
one objection has been taken more strongly and broadly than
another, it has been both to the amount and the kind of that
power. That has been made perfectly clear to my mind. But 1
have not gathered with equal clearness what it is that you would
substitute for it. The principles are, as 1 understand, that educa
tion is to be free, or. for the sake of avoiding ambiguity of words,
gratuitous. (Applause.) I understand from Mr. Dixon there is
some difference of opinion, but that the bulk of you are united
upon that subject. (Applause.) But with reference to the com
pulsory principle, T have not understood from ATr. Dixon or any
speaker, that then* was a difference of opinion among you. (Cries
of ‘‘None.’’) With respect to the question of the power of Local
Boards as to religion, what am 1 to understand would be your
basis I Where would you draw the line between the school that is
secular and the school to which you would object on the ground of
its being what is now termed sectarian ? Would anything what
ever in the nature of religion he permissible in your schools, or
would it not ! The reason 1 put the question is that I think it
one of very great importance, because it has been stated that the
view of the League (I do not pretend to be accurately informed,
and 1 only ask for information) is that the Holy Scriptures might
be read in the schools provided they were not explained. Now,
only for the sake of greater clearness, I will put it according to the.
old story of the three courses. Here are Holy Scriptures read and
explained; Holy Scriptures read and not explained; and simple
secular instruction, without any reading of the Scriptures at all.
(“ The last ! the last ! ’’ and loud cheers). I do not know whether
Mr. Dixon or Mr. Chamberlain is authorised to speak upon this
point in the name of the League; but, if they were, I think it
would be of advantage to us to know. In stating those three
courses I have not at all wished to preclude him or any other gen
tlemen from stating any other. 1 only state those as being what
have prominently occurred to myself. With regard to what might
be, called theological or religious instruction, I have begged the
question so far—I have assumed that you would include that; but
with regard to any of those particular methods which it may be
(or by some may be thought to) fall short of denominational in
struction, it would be an advantage to us to know whether the
League have an article of its creed if I may so call it, upon that
�29
subject; and, if so, which of those three courses it is disposed to
follow.
Mr. Chamberlain' : Sir, in the draft of a Hill which was
prepared on behalf of the League, in order to put in the clearest
form their views before the country, and which was passed by the
Executive Committee, subject, however, to further revision, there
occurs this clause, which, to a certain extent, answers your ques
tion :—“ That in the national rate schools no creed, catechism, or
tenet peculiar to any sect shall be taught in any national rate
school, but the School Board shall have power to grant the use
of the school rooms out of school hours for the giving of
religious instruction, provided that no undue preference be
given to one or more sects to the exclusion of others.
But the rooms shall not be granted for the purposes of
religious worship. The School Board shall have power to permit
the reading of the Scriptures in the schools, provided that no child
shall be present at such reading if his parents or guardians dis
approve. That the time for giving such reading be before or after
the ordinary school business, and that it be so fixed as that no
child be thereby in effect excluded directly or indirectly from the
other advantages which the school affords.” I may point out that
that clause does not say anything about the explanation of the
Scriptures. It was thought that was sufficiently provided for in
the first part of the clause, which says that “no tenet peculiar to
any sect shall be taught; ” and it was considered, therefore, that if
the reading were allowed in the schools, it must be of a perfectly
unsectarian character. It is, however, only fair that I should say,
before I .sit down, that although that was the clause as adopted
provisionally by the Executive Committee, yet there is a Aery
strong feeling amongst the members of the League that for that
clause should be substituted one requiring that secular instruction
alone should be given in the schools which are aided by the rates.
(Applause.)
Mr. Gladstone : It would seem to me to follow that if that
clause were acted upon, something in the nature of a Conscience
Clause is introduced into flic basis of your own Bill.
Mr. Chamberlain : What is called the “time-table Conscience
Clause ” would have to be introduced with regard to the Bible
reading, to meet the difficulty of the Iloman Catholics, who use a
different version of the Scriptures, as in Ireland.
�30
Air. Gladstone: Then with reference to the power (one cannot
mistake the object of it) of the Board to permit the use of the
room for denominational instruction out of school hours, have you
no tear at all that that would introduce into the vestries the same
element of religious contention which has been so vividly described
by Mr. Vince ?
Air. Chamberlain : The clause only permits the use of the
school rooms for such purposes “provided that no undue preference
be given to one or more sects.”
Air. Gladstone : I have not, as I have said, the least doubt
about the object—it is that perfect impartiality should be observed;
but with regard to the administration of the matter under the
clause, it occurs to me that the very conditions of time and light
available, in a district where there might be a variety of sects claim
ing the room, would make a considerable amount of practical diffi
culty ; and I only ask whether you apprehend that with reference
to the administration of that portion of the clause, if it were
carried, you might not be open to a portion of the very same evils
as those that have been foreshadowed by Air. ATnce.
Air. Chamberlain : That was apprehended by many members of
the League.
Air. Gladstone : Then 1 do not think there is anything more
that I need troAle you upon. Gentlemen, I am much obliged to
you.
Mr. Dixon : On behalf of the Deputation, Air. Gladstone, I
tender you our most gratefid thanks for the patience with which
you have received us.
The Deputation then withdrew.
I
�NATIONAL EDUCATION L E A G U E.
O EJECT.
The establishment of a system which shall secure the Education
of every Child in the Country.
J/AIA A’S.
1. —Local Authorities shall be compelled by law to see that
sufficient School Accommodation is provided for every
Child in their district.
2. —The cost of founding and maintaining such Schools as may
be required shall be provided out of Local Rates, sup
plemented by Government Grants.
3. —All Schools aided by Local Rates shall be under the
management of Local Authorities, and subject to Govern
ment Inspection.
4. —All Schools aided by Local Rates shall be Unsectarian.
5. —To all Schools aided by Local Rates admission shall be free.
6. —School"Accommodatian being provided, the State or the Local
Authorities shall have power to compel the attendance of
children of suitable age not otherwise receiving education.
EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OF THE LEAGUE.
George Dixon, M.P., Chairman of Council.
Joseph Chamberlain, Chairman of Executive Committee.
John Jaffray, J.P., Treasurer.
Jesse Collings, Honorary Secretary.
Applegarth, Robert, London.
Bazley, C. IL, J.P., Manchester.
Booth, Charles, Liverpool.
Bragg, William, Sheffield.
Brown, Rev. J. Jenkyn, Birmingham.
Bunce, J. Thackray, F.S.S., Birmingham.
Caldicott, Rev. J. W., M.A., Bristol.
Chamberlain, J. H., F.R.I.B.A., Birmingham.
Chamberlain, Joseph, Birmingham.
Cheetham, William, Manchester.
Clarke, Rev. Charles, F.L.S., Birmingham.
Collier, W. F., Plymouth.
�Cowen, J., jun., Newcastle-on-Tyne.
Crosskey, Rev. H. W., F.G.S., Birmingham.
Dale, R. W., M.A., Birmingham.
Dawson. George, M.A., F.G.S., Birmingham.
Dilke, Sir 0. W., Bart., M.P., London.
Fawcett, Professor, M.P., Cambridge.
Fawcett, Mrs.
Ferguson, Major, Carlisle.
Field, Alfred, Birmingham.
Fry, Herbert, London.
Harris, William, Birmingham.
Herbert, the Hon. Auberon, M.P., London.
Hodgson, W. B., LL.D., London.
Holden, Angus, Bradford.
Holland, Henry, ex-Mayor of'Birmingham.
Howell, George, London.
Huth, Edward, Huddersfield.
Kenriek, William, Birmingham.
Kingsley, Rev. Canon, Eversley.
Kitson, James, jun., Leeds.
Lloyd, G. B. Birmingham.
Macfie, Rev. M., F. R.G.S., Birmingham.
Mander, S. S., Wolverhampton.
Martineau, R. F., Birmingham.
Mathews, 0. E., Birmingham.
Maxfield, M., Leicester.
Maxse, Captain, R.N., Southampton.
Middlemore, William, Birmingham.
Osborne, E.
Birmingham.
Osler, A. Follett, F.R.S., Birmingham.
Prange, F. G., Liverpool.
Rothera, G. B., Nottingham.
Rumney, Alderman, Manchester.
Ryland, Arthur, Birmingham.
Steinthal, Rev. S. A., Manchester.
Timmins, Samuel, F.R.S.L., Birmingham.
Vinci1, Rev. < ’hartes, Birmingham.
Webster, Thomas, Q.C., Loudon.
Winkworth, Stephen, Bolton.
Wright, J. S., Birmingham.
Zineke, Rev. F. B., M.A., Ipswich.
FINANCE COMMITTEE—Chairman, William Harris.
PUBLISHING COMMITTEE—Chairman, J. Thaikray Bunce.
BRANCHES COMMITTEE—Chairman, R. F. Martineau.
Francis Adams, Secretary.
Central Offices, 47, Ann Street,
Birmingham.
THE “JOURNAL” PRINTING OFFICES, NEW STREET, BIRMINGHAM.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Victorian Blogging
Description
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A collection of digitised nineteenth-century pamphlets from Conway Hall Library & Archives. This includes the Conway Tracts, Moncure Conway's personal pamphlet library; the Morris Tracts, donated to the library by Miss Morris in 1904; the National Secular Society's pamphlet library and others. The Conway Tracts were bound with additional ephemera, such as lecture programmes and handwritten notes.<br /><br />Please note that these digitised pamphlets have been edited to maximise the accuracy of the OCR, ensuring they are text searchable. If you would like to view un-edited, full-colour versions of any of our pamphlets, please email librarian@conwayhall.org.uk.<br /><br /><span><img src="http://www.heritagefund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/attachments/TNLHLF_Colour_Logo_English_RGB_0_0.jpg" width="238" height="91" alt="TNLHLF_Colour_Logo_English_RGB_0_0.jpg" /></span>
Creator
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Conway Hall Library & Archives
Date
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2018
Publisher
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Conway Hall Ethical Society
Text
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Pamphlet
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Verbatim report of the proceedings of a deputation of the Right Hon. W.E. Gladstone, M.P., the Right Hon. Earl de Grey and Ripon, the Right Hon. W.E. Forster, M.P. on Wednesday, March 9, 1870
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
National Education League
Description
An account of the resource
Place of publication: Birmingham
Collation: 30, [2] p. ; 21 cm.
Notes: From the library of Dr Moncure Conway. Aims and objectives of the League and committee members listed on unnumbered pages at the end. Includes list of delegates from the branches.
Publisher
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National Education League
Date
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1870
Identifier
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G5207
Subject
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Education
Rights
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<a href="http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/mark/1.0/"><img src="http://i.creativecommons.org/p/mark/1.0/88x31.png" alt="Public Domain Mark" /></a><span> </span><br /><span>This work (Verbatim report of the proceedings of a deputation of the Right Hon. W.E. Gladstone, M.P., the Right Hon. Earl de Grey and Ripon, the Right Hon. W.E. Forster, M.P. on Wednesday, March 9, 1870), identified by </span><a href="https://conwayhallcollections.omeka.net/items/show/www.conwayhall.org.uk"><span>Humanist Library and Archives</span></a><span>, is free of known copyright restrictions.</span>
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application/pdf
Type
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Text
Language
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English
Conway Tracts
Earl de Grey and Ripon
George Forster
Religious Education
State Education
W.E. (William Ewart) Gladstone
William Edward Robinson